One of the key parts of evidence former Post Office Executive, Angela Van Den Bogerd, was pressed over was the details of when she became aware that Fujitsu employees could access branch accounts remotely
Former Post Office boss Angela Van Den Bogerd said she “doesn’t recall” being told that Horizon computer operators could remotely access sub-postmasters’ branch accounts.
Ms Van Den Bogerd, who held numerous positions at the Post Office during her 35-year career, was questioned about why she had told a sub-postmistress, who was sacked and fined, that remote access wasn’t possible when she’d been told it was.
Some of the 700 plus sub-postmasters who were prosecuted claimed figures on their branch accounts were being changed on the Horizon system – but not by them.
Ms Van Den Bogerd opened her evidence at the Horizon IT Inquiry on Thursday saying she is “truly sorry” for the “devastation” caused to wrongly convicted sub-postmasters.
But she said she did the “best I could”, adding: “I didn’t knowingly do anything wrong, and I would never knowingly do anything wrong.”
Ms Van Den Bogerd – who oversaw the prosecutions of sub-postmasters – instead blamed Horizon developer Fujitsu for not being “transparent” with her and the Post Office.
The former executive, who was played by Coronation Street actress Katherine Kelly in the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office, was a key figure in the events as the former people services director at Post Office Ltd and programme director for the branch support programme.
Van Den Bogerd claims she forgot about 2010 email about remote access
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked her if she had “airbrushed” from her mind the fact that Horizon developer Fujitsu had remote access to accounts.
She claimed she only became aware in 2011 that employees of Fujitsu – the Japanese tech firm that developed the faulty IT system – could in theory have remote access.
In her witness statement given to the inquiry she had written: “Pre-2011, I had no knowledge of the ability of Fujitsu employees to alter transaction data in branch accounts without the knowledge or consent of SPMS [sub-postmasters].”
But Mr Beer pointed to an email she received on December 5, 2010 from the organisation’s general manager of network support, Lynn Hobbs, who said she had “found out that Fujitsu can actually put an entry into a branch account remotely”.
Angela Van Den Bogerd, former Head of Partnerships at the Post Office, faced questions from ITV News UK Editor Paul Brand as she arrived at the Post Office Inquiry
Putting it to her that she had in fact received that information in 2010, Ms Van Den Bogerd said: “I don’t actually remember receiving these emails.”
After being pressed further, she acknowledged she was given that information “in that email chain, yes”.
Pointing out her witness statement where she said she had “no knowledge”, Mr Beer said: “That’s not right is it? Because you’d been told about it in the email on the 5th December.”
“But as I said, I don’t ever remember seeing that in December,” she replied.
“That’s a different thing whether now you remember 14 years later receiving an email,” Mr Beer pressed. “You’re saying in the witness statement here ‘I had no knowledge of the ability’, when in fact you did have knowledge because you’d been sent that email.”
He further asked: “Is what is truly happening here is that you’re telling us that you don’t recall it because you know the email of December 5, 2010 presents you with a problem?”
She responds: “No not all – I wish I had remembered that information.”
The inquiry heard that while giving evidence in the Mr Bates vs the Post Office High Court case in March 2019, Ms Van Den Bogerd said she first knew about remote access “in the last year or so”.
Mr Beer asked: “That’s false isn’t it?”
She replied: “At the time I didn’t think it was.”
Van Den Bogerd told sacked sub-postmistress Horizon could not be accessed remotely
The inquiry was also shown a transcript of a January 2011 meeting between Ms Van Den Bogerd and sub-postmistress Rachpal Athwal and her husband Val, after Ms Athwal was wrongly accused of stealing £710 and sacked.
In the meeting, Ms Van Den Bogerd said that Horizon could not be accessed remotely by anyone from the Post Office, without mentioning that Fujitsu could, the inquiry heard.
Ms Van Den Bogerd maintained what she said was “accurate”, but Mr Beer accused her of “not being open” about Fujitsu’s access.
Mr Beer asked: “Are you saying that what you said overall there is accurate?”
She said: “So that is accurate. I go on to talk later about Fujitsu, I believe.
“But in terms of what I said there that was accurate. Nobody in Post Office could get into the system then and I still don’t think anyone can now, even today.”
Emails from 2011 and 2014 about remote access shown to inquiry
Mr Beer said she also received emails in January 2011 and April 2014 discussing remote access.
The inquiry was shown a 2014 email sent from communications worker, Melanie Corfield, to several Post Office bosses including Ms Van Den Bogerd.
It read: “Our current line, if we’re asked about remote access being used to change branch data or transactions, is simply ‘this is not and has never been possible’.”
Ms Van Den Bogerd said she does not remember if she challenged the “false lines”, despite knowing this was the case.
She insisted it was not a “cover-up” and that she “must have missed” the email, adding: “If it had registered with me, I would have challenged it.”
One of the key messages given to Ms Van Den Bogerd ahead of a 2015 BBC Panorama programme – Trouble at the Post Office – was that “there is nothing wrong with the computer system”, the inquiry heard.
A briefing document also said “this is about missing money, which we have a duty to protect” and “we do not control the legal process”.
Ms Van Den Bogerd did, however, agree with Mr Beer that Post Office chiefs were later attempting to “control the narrative” by using the words “exception or anomaly” to describe known bugs or defects in the Horizon system.
‘You don’t apologise for anything that you did wrong, do you?’
But Mr Beer earlier during evidence pointed out she had not apologised for her own role in the scandal in her witness statement.
Ms Van Den Bogerd said: “I’ve reflected on this quite a bit and the disclosure that I’ve seen through this process, there are things that, documents that I’ve seen that… clearly knowing what I know now, I would give further weight to some of those documents than I did at the time, so they would have more significance.
“So things that I might have missed at the time I really regret that and wish I’d been able to see that back then.”
Mr Beer pressed again, asking: “You don’t apologise for anything that you did wrong, do you?”
Secret tapes, obtained by ITV News show Ms Van Den Bogerd was warned of wrongful conviction six years before an innocent sub-postmaster was cleared
She responded: “I apologise for not getting to the answer more quickly. But with the evidence I had and the parameters of my role at the time, I did the best I could to the best of my ability.”
She had opened her evidence admitting that “saying sorry I know doesn’t change what’s happened” in a statement that she read to the inquiry.
“But I do want to say to everyone impacted by wrongful convictions and wrongful contract terminations that I am truly, truly sorry for the devastation caused to you, your family and friends,” she continued.
“I hope my evidence will assist this inquiry with getting to the answers you and so many others deserve.”
Van Den Bogerd said she quit due to being ‘disillusioned’ with compensation process
Ms Van Den Bogerd held various roles throughout her 35-year career at the Post Office, starting off as a network change operations manager, then on to head of network services, head of partnerships, director of support services and the director of people and change.
She was appointed as the Post Office’s business improvement director in 2018, but stepped down from the role in 2020.
Ms Van Den Bogerd told the inquiry she left because of delays in compensating sub-postmasters, saying she was “disillusioned” with the process.
She denied it was because in 2019 judge Mr Justice Fraser said she “obfuscated” and “misled” the High Court during legal action brought by hundreds of subpostmasters.
Earlier in April a secret recording, obtained by ITV News, revealed Ms Van Den Bogerd, was told in January 2015 that the organisation had “materially misled” the courts in prosecuting Carl Page – a sub-postmaster from Staffordshire.
Ms Van Den Bogerd is heard in the recording agreeing with independent investigator Ron Warmington that “we need to take another look at this,” confirming he had provided “further information that is material to this case”.
However, Mr Page heard nothing from Ms Van Den Bogerd or anyone at the Post Office after this meeting. His conviction was not overturned for another six years.
In that time, Mr Page attempted to take his own life due to the impact the wrongful conviction had on his mental health and his life.
Less than four weeks after the meeting between Ms Van Den Bogerd and Mr Warmington, she was called to give evidence to MPs about Horizon alongside then Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells.
She sat next to Ms Vennells as the Post Office boss told the committee that the organisation had found no evidence of any miscarriages of justice.
Ms Van Den Bogerd told MPs there is “not a culture of denial” at the Post Office, “we have not dragged our feet” and that she had “done a thorough investigation” into hundreds of cases.
When ITV News approached Ms Van Den Bogerd for comment, she said: “I am cooperating fully with the Inquiry and will be giving evidence later this month. I will not be making any comment outside the Inquiry process.”
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A Post Office spokesperson said: “We reiterate our heartfelt apology to victims in the Horizon IT Scandal and our focus remains on supporting the ongoing Public Inquiry to establish the truth of what happened so those affected can receive the justice and redress they so deserve.”
Second Sight’s Mr Warmington told ITV News he could not comment on the recording as he has been designated a Core Participant in the ongoing Post Office Inquiry and have undertaken confidentiality agreements.
The inquiry is entering phases five and six, which examines governance, redress and how the Post Office and others responded to the scandal.
The Post Office has come under fire since the broadcast of ITV drama Mr Bates Vs The Post Office, which put the Horizon scandal under the spotlight.
The Horizon scandal led to hundreds of sub-postmasters being wrongly convicted of fraud as a faulty IT system made it appear that they had lost money.
As a result, the government-owned organisation prosecuted more than 700 sub-postmasters and handed down criminal convictions between 1999 and 2015.
Hundreds are still awaiting compensation, despite the government announcing those whose convictions were quashed are eligible for £600,000 payouts.